tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC December 4, 2013 8:00pm-9:01pm PST
watch chris matthews interview president obama. chris hayes is up next. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, the white house today got the best news it has had in two months about obama care. we will bring that news to you in a moment as well as the president's latest push to get young people to enroll. but it has always been the case, the political fate of obama care would rest ultimately on its performance, what it did for people's lives and not on the lies and slander directed at it from the right. and while the smears deployed against it get shorter and shorter we have the latest example. did you hear about the guy whose baby was denied coverage under obama care? >> those family plan quotes included myself, my wife, our 7, 5, and 3-year-old, and 18 month-old was left off.
the response was no, they don't allow family plans under the age of 8. >> this guy tried to sign his family up for insurance on the new york state exchange and they refused to enroll his 18 month-old baby? obama care is anti-toddler? the story, as you might imagine, got a lot of pickup in the right wing media. the post surfaced again and again all over conservative press and of course landed distraught father on fox news. even the house speaker john boehner climbed on board the obama hates toddlers bandwagon, after saying he learned obama care wouldn't cover his baby. now, hearing this story you may ask yourself the question any journalist writing the story or producer doing a segment about it, or any person with just basic common sense would be asking, could it possibly be the case that obama was denying coverage to a toddler?
well, the answer, that very good question is no, of course not. of course not, that is not true. a spokesperson from the new york health department said the story was 100% false. of course, everyone is covered in the family policy. in fact, it appears the clerical error was at fault for the misconception. and a clerical error that it appears he himself might have been behind. they quoted, the mix up appears to be in the application, which originally listed only three of his children even though he has four. when the clerical error was discovered it was corrected, the health department said. how dare the president not know how many kids the long island dad has. of course, the man also happens to be a right wing activist who ran and lost on the conservative party line in his county legislature.
now, this particular viral line never jumped the media barrier, and that is because the website is up and by all appearances, really running, a source telling politico that the website has enrolled 29,000 people, more than it enrolled in the entire month of october, if you want an apple to apple comparison, here is what the first two months looked like, compared to after the relaunch. the comparison there, 2248, to 29,000. the president is pushing enrollment to the december 23rd deadline. today, he focused on young people whose participation is crucial to the success of the law. >> i do remember what it is like being 27 or 28. and aside from the occasional basketball injury, you know, most of the time i kind of felt like i had nothing to worry about. of course, that is what most
people think. until they have something to worry about. but at that point oftentimes it is too late. >> joining me now, senior fellow at media matters for america. eric, i think there is an interesting phenomenon where you have this twice a day, who were right about the website's problems out of the box for reasons determined by their ideological predispositions. >> and as you said, eventually time will catch up with them. because this is sort of reporting by anecdote, which is never a good way to do any kind of journalism. and the anecdote, as you reported, fell apart in about eight hours, spread to the right wing media and the main stream, the reason it jumped to the main stream is because it did fall apart so quickly. we have the republican conservative opposition to health care is basically based on these horror stories.
i saw online republicans hope that the horror stories will basically lead them to next year's election. i don't think it is going to last for 50 weeks, but this is what they put all of their emphasis on, and we're just going to hear more and more of them. but as you say, they sort of get further and further from any reality. >> the crucial test on the political consequences are whether they do make that jump. when you talk about the planned cancellation stories, which when you scratch the surface of a lot of them were way less than they appeared. we're talking about people who qualified for subsidies, and were not reported for qualifying for subsidies, those really did have an impact. but i think the mainstream media that has been burned have gotten more skeptical. >> the cancellation stories, for a week there they were everywhere. and i think a vast majority of americans thought millions of people just lost their health
insurance. they got a cancellation notice inviting them to join another plan that may cost them less. so that was a main stream media problem, and hopefully they got burned so they will sort of leave these other stories alone. but fox will push this story forever. as you suggest, this is an end to the stories, and the story raised, benghazi health care, there is really no reason to talk about the cover-up, benghazi, but they will keep talking about it. these right wing stories will continue ad nauseum, because that is what they're going to think. >> if it were the case, that obama care just capriciously denied a toddler health care, and there is that old adage, winston churchhill, about a lie getting spread all over the world. >> and the story was already
debunked before it appeared on "hannity." and fox pushed this other story within the last few days about a cancer survivor who was going to not have insurance, and just basically die if he -- you know, the cancer came back. and they had him on, and an insurance broker got in touch with him off the air and said wow, you still have insurance. you didn't get cancelled. again, that story did not hold up. fox has not addressed that issue. >> there is something kind of sick about it. these are actual people lying. people are defending these stories, i don't begrudge them anything. but to sort of manipulate people this way, scaring people as we are trying to just clear away the confusion. again, i say this to conservatives and said it about the website and will say it to them again, if you think it is so bad, it is going to play out in your favor.
and that was true about the website, don't shut down the government, let the website launch, if you think the whole policy is bad let it play out in your favor and don't go around spreading lies about toddlers. joining me now, co-chair of the congressional progressive caucus. and congressman, there is an interesting piece, ryan grim co-authored it, about the law that actually rests on a lot of densely populated urban areas, where a vast majority of the uninsured are. somebody representing the insured. how is obama care working out from your perspective in your district? >> well, in minnesota we have a program that is working well. the fact is, people are enrolling, thousands are enrolling and set up insurance already. many, many more than that have opened up accounts and have shopped on line. we're not hearing these kind of complaints.
in fact, i've been having meetings in the district. and folks showed up in big numbers, the last meeting, the numbers kind of trailed off because people kind of know what is going on. >> do you think the level of confusion and uncertainty and panic, whipped up by folks at fox, by the website's actual dysfunction, you're observing that that is declining now? >> i absolutely do. and i tell you this, i think that as time goes on, they're going to be depend on those sort of made-up stories. like this fellow that you were just talking about. but the numbers are going to be more and more in favor of the law. and you know, the fact of the matter is, is that this is technology. it is going to be fixed. there are people working on it. and you know, i would rather be the one who helps uninsured get insured and help reduce the medical inflation for people and help them get good coverage than the one who is complaining about it.
>> what are your colleagues? i'm really confused about what republicans are going to do? i guess they will vote to repeal again -- what are your colleagues going to do for the rest of this congress which is nearing its mid-way point. >> well, we haven't done very much at all. as a matter of fact, speaker boehner said he wanted to be judged not on the laws he passed but on the laws he repealed, he has not re peeled any of them. although he has tried. we would like to appeal to their better nature if we could. if we could get something done on immigration, that would be awesome. if we could lift the sequester and put forth a budget that could get people back to work, that would be good. i'm not cynical -- >> i'm not cynical either, in this universe in which we live, you and some of your colleagues have an idea for something the
president could actually do by himself to increase wages for working people. what is that? >> well, you know, there are about 2 million workers who work for federal contractors. these contractors pay people sub standard wage, $7.45, no benefits, people have been on these jobs for literally years, and an executive order could solve this problem, and so we wrote a letter to the president about two months ago asking him to do something about it. and i gave another letter today. and you know, i think he is not sincere. he gave a wonderful speech about income inequality today. and he urged congress to raise the minimum wage, but in this congress i think we're going to have to look at what the executive can do and doing something with these contractors who pay people substandard pay is something we can do right away. so tomorrow at the aerospace conference, they demand they get
paid better by the contractors. >> and an executive order, the signature by the president could raise wages for two million workers who are currently employed by federal contractors who pay substandard wages. congressman, thank you for your time tonight. >> i think this immigration issue has been kicked around this town now for 15 years. that is why i said the day after the election it is time for congress to do its work. >> the alternate reality in which congress does its work and passes immigration reform, the very first installment in our special series with bonus facial hair when we return. [ female announcer ] tide pods does the job of three things.
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today, john boehner, speaker of the least productive house of representatives in history took the floor to cast the blame elsewhere. >> to date, the house has passed nearly 150 bills this congress that the united states senate has failed to act on. the senate, the president, continue to stand in the way of the people's priorities. when will they start listening to the american people?
>> trying to shift the blame to the senate. but the reality is there are a number of bills that american people say they support. bills that would almost certainly have a majority support in the house if they were just brought to the floor for a vote now. there was, however, a promising sign out of john boehner's office, news he hired becky talent, a former mccain staffer who worked on the last immigration push. in response, boehner was savaged. they talked about what they can do if they really listen to the american people. tonight, we'll bring you an installment of series. we have reached into the alternate universe in which john boehner actually does his job. >> good evening, from new york,
i'm chris hayes, it is an historic day many thought they would never see. today, the house of representatives has after years of struggle passed a comprehensive immigration bill. >> the ayes have it. >> in a stunning development just one day after john boehner hired prominent immigration adviser becky talent, the speaker brought the senate's comprehensive immigration bill to the floor for a vote. the result was what advocates had been saying it would be all along. 29 republicans who were on record supporting reform joined with the entire democratic caucus to pass the senate's plan. the excitement among the activists in the house gallery on this historic day was unmistakable. after the vote, triumphant
speaker boehner took a victory speech. >> we had a victory today, also a victory for common sense. >> democrats who long criticized the house gop for its inaction on the reform, rushed to congratulate the house republicans. >> i congratulated the republicans. >> the republicans stepped up and acted. >> first let me say, being from florida, i want to commend the republicans. >> the chamber of commerce issuing a statement of support along with the aflcio, leaving the conservatives to praise the house's action. >> this is a very historic time, because if we can get immigration reform, there is possibility of cats and dogs living with one another in other policies, as well. >> once signed into law, the immigration modernization act will end the mass deportation that has spiked under president obama, the law will pave the path for many, up to 20 million, estimated to be living in the country without status,
including the undocumented students who graduate high school each year. for many of our fellow americans, this law will end years of harassment and anxiety. >> this takes off a lot of weight from shoulders around the united states. >> despite the law, the tea party republicans were livid. >> amnesty could also cost something more than just money. it could cost a nation. >> congressional budget office estimates the law will boost the economy by more than 3%, cut the deficit by almost $200 billion over ten years, savings from new workers, new businesses and new taxpayers. those numbers were not lost on the party's fiscal hawks. >> i'm not aware of any trade association, any major or minor business group that doesn't recognize we need more people, business, and fiscal workers. >> and they recognized the historic vote, with the republican party's renewed
political life. >> i know that everything is not going to change in a year. but if we don't start now we're not going to have anymore success in four years, eight years or 12 years. >> joining me now back in this reality, is the president of the national council. based on the surprising staffing choice, janet, this staffing choice, staffing choice of members of congress don't normally make news, but this one did. it got tons of attention, the senators tweeting congratulations. why all the hubub about a staffer? >> well, i think it is important, as somebody who worked on capitol hill, i understand how important staff can be. there is no question that the speaker sends an important message by saying that somebody who has as much experience, with a great reputation, something with great experience like becky
talent does, and somebody who is a veteran, she has been a big part of legislation, shepherding those through. and working with respected senators like mccain as well as a presidential candidate. there is no question that is an important hire. obviously, i don't want to necessarily give her the kiss of death and endorse her. i am condemning her because i think there are going to be lots of challenges. and ultimately, the speaker is going to be accountable on this. but becky, i think -- becky's hire -- i think it raises the potential for a lot more engagement. and that is something that has been missing. the discussion in the house, and somebody who is on point. >> and they're trying to just ignore it and it will go away.
and one of those little points in congress is that it literally could be the case that john boehner brought this senate bill to the floor tomorrow, as he has done with numerous pieces of legislation, i believe three at last count. he could do it tomorrow, and it could be signed the day after, and the spectre that hangs over millions of fellow americans, could be lifted. john boehner could do this. >> there is no question he has the authority, the potential, the power to bring this bill to the floor tomorrow. his caucus is not that excited about it. it is split. and i think there is a sincere effort by the speaker to try to figure out how he can make that happen and still maintain some support for the bill that would come up.
i think that there is a sentiment among some of his caucus that the senate bill is now tantamount, you know, just the term, the senate bill, has now baggage around it. >> okay, i have to remind people what that senate bill was. i mean, that thing was so watered down. they stuffed $30 billion of ridiculous and inexcusable militarized pork in the bill, in which we would have guns every five feet, i'm exaggerating just a little bit. that thing was so watered down to get the votes. and the hoops people have to jump into. there are all sorts of problems for the senate bill. if that is not a problem, i don't know what would be. >> yeah, i think the key is, some type of bill could surface. it doesn't have to be the senate bill. but a bill can surface -- >> john boehner has to listen to his conscience, and listen to his moral compass, he could do this tomorrow. janet margia, thank you. >> thank you. and coming up, the increasingly gnarly family feud,
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and the reason she is stressing her family in that political ad is that her family is the only reason she is running for candidate. it shows cheney at a huge 28-point disadvantage to incumbent mike enzi, of course she is running in a state where she last lived in 1978. and more recently, she was fined for not fulfilling her registration requirements. it might strike you as odd, given that dick cheney who is tapping into his d.c. fundraising for his daughter, recently criticized mike enzi for doing the same thing. >> as a record, if you go back to his finances he gets about 80% of his funds from his washington based pacs. he doesn't get much money from wyoming. >> of course, another reason liz cheney wants to remind you she loves her family is that her
sister called her out for saying she has a funny way of expressing her family love. things got a little hairy after liz told fox news that gay couples should not be allowed to marry. her sister is gay and married. she took to her facebook page, saying liz has been a guest in her home, to have her now say she doesn't support our right to marry is offensive, to say the least. the sisters have not spoken since the summer. well, now comes father knows best who yet appears to reprimand them for talking out of turn. >> we were surprised when there was an attack launched against liz, on facebook. and wished it had not happened. and do believe we dealt with the situation and lived with it for
many years. it always has been dealt with within the context of the family. and frankly that is our preference. >> you can bet it is going to be a gnarly christmas in the cheney house, joining me now, howard fineman. i just could not believe. i seriously could not believe that cheney said that. >> that last thing that he said there? >> yeah, that dick cheney came out. talk about fuelling the fire of this whole thing. >> no, what i loved about that, chris, was the way that cheney, the way in which he said it, he said there was an attack launched. it sounded like missile strikes in iraq. and that -- those are the cheneys, those loveable cheney.
>> and the loveable cheneys narrative, there was talk a month ago when this whole thing happened a month ago, did it help liz because it distanced her and would be popular with the conservative-based primary in wyoming. and this is not helpful to liz cheney. >> no, i don't think any of that is helpful to liz cheney because if you do want to focus on the family you want it to be -- if that is sort of your calling card you want it to be kind of a happy family story. and not this one that is sort of -- equal parts you know, shakespeare in a bad, off, off, off broadway play. so that is not good. the pac thing just astounds me, it absolutely astounds me if you want to talk about that. because i love the fact that the name of the pac that she just
started to prove her wyomingness, is called the cowboy pac. but their fundraiser tomorrow night here in washington, d.c. is at cafe milano. >> that is perfect. >> which is well known as the ultimate sort of europeanized -- it is the washington lobbyist's idea of a fancy italian restaurant. >> right. >> and in georgetown, no less. and of course, all the people running the pac. i looked into the backgrounds of the people running this news, supposedly independent super pac. they're all mccain supporters. they're all establishment republicans who supported john mccain down the line, who supported bob dole down the line, you know, these are the establishment republicans that liz cheney claims she is running
against, which is absurd on its face to begin with, since her father is the ultimate establishment republican. >> and that is what is so famous to me right now, this -- there is no ideology here, this is dick cheney and liz cheney saying, did you see our last name? that senate seat is mine, why don't you take a hike. and trying to just basically use their raw muscle and influence and fundraising prowess, to just boot mike enzi, even if it costs dick cheney every last friendship with anyone in his party. >> yeah, he is going to draw down the chips that he has from all over washington, indeed, all over the country to raise money for his daughter. and had he is going to go on tv on every attack venue he can find to utterly trash mike enzi to the extent that he can. poor old mike enzi is kind of like you know, a jackalope walking down the highway in wyoming. you know he is a former shoe salesman, who by the way, i think has one of the higher
conservative voting records in the senate. >> yeah, and that is what i mean by there is no ideological content here. >> there isn't, i don't like to say these kind of things because i don't like to call people names, but the sheer arrogance of what the cheneys are doing, it is breathtaking. and i know wyoming, it will be interesting to see if the republicans are willing to put up with it in wyoming. it will be interesting. >> we'll be right back. [ sniffles, coughs ] shhhh!
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figure than the pope. he is seen as a progressive pope, who once worked as a bouncer, now it is reported he may be sneaking out of the vatican at night in disguise to personally feed the homeless, this well-loved pope is making enemies, especially in the right wing, his discussion about the poor caused a storm from the right wing, and compelled rush limbaugh to call him a marxist. but there is no greater idea than to give comfort to the enemy. today, rush limbaugh lost his mind. >> pope, the ripping america. the pope is ripping capitalism. the pope is ripping trickle down economics. and obama is having an orgasm. >> we'll tell you what the president said when we return.
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length. how can it be, he wrote, that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure but it is news when the stock market loses two points? but this increasing inequality is most pronounced in our country. and it challenges the very essence of who we are as a people. >> the president earlier today at a major economic policy speech, defining the income inequality the defining problem of our time, adding it is not just the very rich in america. it adds that it is harder and harder for for people on the bottom to reach the top. the reality is that americans have less economic mobility than people in canada and much of western europe. and the problem has been getting worse. >> a child born in the top 20% has about a two in three chance
of staying at our -- or near the top. a child born at the bottom percentage has a less chance, is ten times likelier to stay where he is. >> for years, we have been hearing so much from our political class, the democrats and republicans that education is the solution to the problem. if we just figure out better to educate our poor kids we could reduce the inequality. and the president today acknowledged that may not be enough. >> the outcomes we're having today, the health care, the budget, reforming our financial systems, all of these things will have a practical effect on americans, i am convinced the decisions we make in the next few years, will determine whether or not america will be the country where children can grow up and have opportunities that are real.
>> i have seen you talk about your work in education as fundamentally driven towards precisely the kinds of goals the president talks about today. reducing inequality. expanding social mobility. and i wonder what your take is on how much of that can be achieved through education, while we have seen outside the schools such a massively expanding amount of poor people. >> yeah, i think part of the problem that we have in the debate today is that people think that you either have to solve the problem of poverty through social programs or it is all about education. and i actually think that the answer is in the middle. you know, you have to have a good social safety net. especially for children, to ensure that they're getting some of the services that they need. but it is also up incumbent upon us as a society to make sure
children are educated so that they have the tools they need to be productive adults. >> can i ask you, if you could take a poor kid, make them upper middle class and give them bad teachers. or you could take a poor kid, change out their bad teachers, but keep them poor, what would you do? >> well, i wouldn't do either. i think what goal we have to reach is to make sure every child has a quality teacher in front of them every single day. it doesn't matter if you go to low income communities or upper income communities, in the suburbs, when you ask parents about their children's experience, almost all of them will say that teacher quality matters. i think that any parent will say who is standing in front of them every day makes a big difference. and everybody wants to ensure that their kids have high quality teachers. >> of course, right, but here is the problem, we have over the last 12 years had a tremendous amount of focus on teacher
equality. we have done a lot of changes, passed no child left behind, we see changes in every city i've been a reporter and lived in, from chicago to washington, d.c. to atlanta to new york. all over the place, seeing tremendous national debates, we've seen billions and billions of dollars poured into these hedge funds. at the same time, child poverty has expanded. the republicans are talking about cutting $40 billion from food stamps. and it seems to me there is not the same attention from the community, from the middle class, that this is a huge threat to the success of these kids. >> well, i think you know, different people have different interests. and i certainly think for example, something like child nutrition and child hunger has over the last couple of years gained tremendous steam. and people understand that when kids come to school hungry that
makes a huge difference in their ability to learn. right? so you have got advocates who believe that is incredibly important and who are pouring a ton of resources into that. and that is an absolutely worthy cause. you know, as an educator, i would say because we are with children for a significant portion of their days and of their years that we should also be doing everything within our power to make sure that the schooling environment that they're in, you know, gives them the skills that they need to be successful in life. so you know, i think that you know, to say that well, you've got lots of people pouring a lot of money into this, does that mean that they're ignoring other things? i don't think so, i don't think there is a person out there that i know that says that poverty doesn't matter. i think that people acknowledge that, and they know that there
are lots of programs that should be in place and that are very important. but what happens in the classroom every day in the schools matters just as much. >> well, i personally think the social science leading me to the conclusion it matters less than what happens outside of the schools. and i think if you look at the comparative data we have from pisa, let's look at the places doing it right. that have a whole variety of educational systems, poland, finland, there are a lot of different practices. the thing that jumps out, they have a lot less poor kids, many, many fewer kids. >> let's look at what you're trying to say, to your point, let's look at pisa, if you look in the united states from 2003 until now, on the pisa test, actually, the poorest kids in this country have gained about 11 points. the richest kids in this country have actually fallen by some points. so the small gains we've seen in the nation have been accomplished by the poorest children.
that says, even though kids are growing up in poverty. even though they have tremendous challenges we can still expect that if we have the right school environments, they can learn, and thrive and grow academically. >> they can learn and thrive and grow academically, but what i'm trying to say, even though they thrive academically, that we're producing a society in which we have nothing. i'm very serious, the social mobility data suggests this, even if we're getting better at educating the kids we're producing a society in which we have no jobs for them to go into. no path forward for them. >> here is the thing, i think if you look at -- you know, any country, any sort of point in history, so you know -- when you care about poverty, i believe that one of the most important tools that you have to break the cycle of inner-generational poverty, is providing kids with a great education. how can you expect to lift kids
out of poverty, to have a different circumstance than their parents had, to provide them with the education to give them the skills they need to get them a well paying job. >> and i think what we're seeing in this economy and what we're seeing in the last 12 years is precisely the fact it is not cashing out in the real world. we're achieving at the bottom, even at the same time we're seeing widening social inequality and declining social mobility. >> i think that both of those are huge issues, but when you look at the disconnect that exists. talk about the american employers today. they will tell you that they -- they have problems finding people with the skills and the knowledge that they need to fill some of their mission critical jobs. and yet we have the unemployment rate that we do today. that means there is a mismatch between our public education system and what the employers of tomorrow are going to need from their work force, and that is where we need more alignment. >> michelle rhee, i really appreciate you taking time.
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joining me now, bob herbert, senior fellow, and schwartz economic policy analysis, i want to talk about the inequality, social mobility, the conversation i just had with michelle rhee about those issues. >> well, when you look at the education, my personal opinion is the so-called education reform movement is the biggest frauds in my lifetime. one is we have been cutting funds to schools, look at chicago, we have been firing teachers over the past several years. >> particularly in the wake of the great recession. >> not responding when the economy has gotten a little bit
better, so the idea we're trying to help these kids at the same time we're cutting service to public schools is crazy, the second thing is you're never going to be able to improve the schools, the education outcomes in this country if you don't deal with poverty. >> and i thought the president today gave a comprehensive vision on social mobility, you can't just education your way out of the problem. >> you asked the question whether or not it is better to be rich, and have bad teachers, or whether or not it is better to be poor and have quality teachers. the fact is you actually have extended education through enrichment activities, we should be extending the day in school, by 25% that takes more teachers and resources. >> but you can't deal with inequality and poverty if you don't deal with jobs. the way to get kids out of
poverty and increase mobility is to put people to work. >> and the president today talked about minimum wage and job stimulus. but in some ways, i think the criticism of the speech is that if this economy exists in a republican, the democrats would be going crazy about it. the nature of the economy looks like a republican economy, in so far as it is a very unequal one. >> the inequality causes low economic growth. you can't get job growth with these levels of poverty. you can't have the jobs that invest in health care, the tax breaks are given to the rich -- >> you have a lot less productive -- productive consumption, essentially, the money points back to the economy. >> you don't have demand because people don't have jobs or they're working at low wage work. so you don't have the demand that would spark business investment. >> and the president today i think was making this very practical case, which was
interesting, he kept saying it is not ideological, this is actually the thing that is not working. i think that pragmatic argument has been a rising argument in the last few years. >> oh, no, there has been speculation on the right wing, the left wing, the data is out, it is correlated with sluggish growth. that some of the most equal societies in the world actually have the highest economic growth and the more emphasis on education. we taught the nation and world on one category. we created after the recession more low income jobs, more low wage jobs than any other country, an advanced capitalist country. 25% of our jobs are paid 45% of the median wage. in belgium, half -- >> of the middle income -- >> we are the biggest percentage. >> thank you so much.
that is all in for this evening. the rachel maddow show starts right now. >> good evening, chris, thank you for joining us. we begin with breaking news about a fascinating and potentially scary detective story that kept us all glued to the news wires all day long today as this story evolved. this story starts here in the city of tijuana in mexico, right across the border from san diego. last thursday on thanksgiving day, a big truck left the hospital in tijuana, ultimately heading across the country, almost a thousand miles to mexico city. that is how far they were supposed to go on the route. it was a very long trip and a very important trip, because that truck was carrying this. it is an old piece of equipment from that hospital in tijuana. this particular equipment was